Busy or what????

[Miraiker]

Nick said

My show is seriously crap – therefore I don't think it's worth much

I have kept out of this discussion until now. I thought it was being pretty well covered from every angle.
But NIck, I don't know know you personally but I'm hoping you're going to tell me that this was a joke.
Please?
Anybody taking a show out that they believe to be 'crap' should go straight to the job centre and get a proper job. Don't wreck it for everyone.
Hopefully most people in Punch know that their show can be improved and are working towards that improvement with every show they do. If you really think it's crap then don't take it out no matter how the children react.

[Chris]

In my opinion if you honestly feel your show is not worth paying for, then you shouldn't be doing it. Practice until it is worth paying for. Why inflict it on anybody if you feel it to be worthless?
Of course you can ignore my advice and gain a great deal of experience doing freebies. You'll of course get better and better - but when do you start charging? And how on earth can you charge a fair price? You do a show yesterday which was free. You decide you are now experienced enough to charge for the show tomorrow. You charge £80 - for the same show you did yesterday for free? How do you justify that? Don't you think it will get out? And is anybody who got you last year for nothing going to be willing to pay a professional fee for you this year? No way. If they have funds to spend it won't be on you, they'll get a "proper" children's entertainer.

In my previous post I suggested a way to do free shows while inflicting the least damage on your standing with fellow performers - but those suggestions were offered reluctantly and the more I think of it the more I am convinced that my initial thought: Never do a free show is the best advice for anyone starting out. Whatever your standard you will be better thought of if you charge.

And I cannot for the life of me see anything wrong by asking another performer for a quotation. In what possible way is the other prof "victim"? And doubtless he does it himself, periodically, to keep abreast of current trends. The only reason you have to get a friend to do it is because it is the only way you will get the truth. But such a mild subterfuge is doing nobody any harm whatsoever. It is no different from Tesco sending a shopper to Asda to see what they are charging for comparitive products.

[BookEmDanno]

I think, Chris, you have misunderstood my intentions and meaning.

I certainly do not think my show is worthless. I was suggesting that there are possibly three types of people. Those who have an accurate view of their abilities, those who over estimate how good they are and those who are better than they think. I am certainly not an over estimator, but may tend to the negative.

My free show is a bit of mutual back scratching, for me, for the booker and for a member of my family. It is intended as a one off. I reiterate it will not deprive anyone else of income.

I felt your initial comment about free shows and than the paragraph about cubs, and the like, a bit contradictory. I thought perhaps cubs and their parents were the public. You latest comment has clarified this and makes good sense.

It could be argued that 'the other prof' is the victim of lies. However, there seems little option but to gather information in the way suggested and perhaps everyone expects it to happen. A trawl of the internet gave me one prof, who lives in the South West, with prices advertised on his web site.

In any event, this conversation has given me a good starting point for a charging policy for which I am grateful.

[Chris]

Sorry if I wasn't specific enough. A public show is one where the public view the show. For example a cub scout show, for the troup, for an end of year treat in the local scout hut would not, in this context, be a public show. A Punch Show at a Fun Day, organised by the scouts and open to the general public, would be a public show.

[Nick Jackson]

But NIck, I don't know know you personally but I'm hoping you're going to tell me that this was a joke.

No. Not a joke at all, Miraiker.

If you really think it's crap then don't take it out no matter how the children react.

And that's what I've more or less done, apart from the sort of of private shows Chris mentions. But I do get cross when I see booked acts which are even worse – and, yes, they do exist.

I was posting in the context of the discussion: How do you judge what your show's worth and following Chris's comment:

...you will soon find out if you are entertaining the children or not. If you are, then you are worth paying. If you are not then you are in the wrong game.

[Miraiker]

OK NIck, here's a suggestion for you.
You know what makes a good show. I've seen much on this board by you relating to the Codmans so I know you are interested in seeing Punch done well.
Why don't you change your own show until you are happy that it's good enough to be a credit to you?
Keep whatever tone or content it is that the children react well to and change the parts that you feel let you down.

I agree whole-heartedly about rubbish booked acts. I'm afraid that they do indeed exist in every area and do us all harm. We should be sure that we don't add to them.

[Nick Jackson]

Thanks for the encouragement, Miraiker. But if I only kept the good bits, I doubt my show would last more than 20 minutes! Also, these days I'm not as fit as I was – doubt I could perform for much longer anyway! But thanks again.

[Chris]

NICK:

But if I only kept the good bits, I doubt my show would last more than 20 minutes!

Actually I think 20 minutes is a good length for a Punch show.

[Professor Eek]

I'd say 20 minutes was spot on ...

If you perform a fast paced show full of gags and bits of business then any longer would be exhausting for yourself and the audience!

[Nick Jackson]

But in the context of how much to charge, 20 mins doesn't seem much at all. And out on the pitch, this hardly gives the bottler time to get round the crowd. Also 20 mins basically means murder and straight to hanging – a tad grim, I think. The late Jack Codman's show was just over an hour.

[Chris]

The late Jack Codman's show was just over an hour.

Different conditions, different type of show, different era.
"Gone with the Wind" was longer than "Dumbo".

[Nick Jackson]

When it comes to busking, the conditions are pretty much the same. And I'm sure that would be an interesting debate. But this is a discussion about what it's fair to charge. And if I was only going to offer a 20 min private show (although my preference is busking), I presume I couldn't charge very much.

[lesclarke]

That presumption is incorrect Nick, I too agree that 20 (ish) minutes is a suitable length for a show, and if you are performing with some decent pace you can pack a lot into 22 minutes.

For a private, party type show, 22 minutes, with a short warm up, and getting the kids settled in the first place will fully fill a half hour spot, if the kids are also a bit hyper you will have to be very good to hold them for longer.

And with the half hour it will have taken you from arrival to set up, and the 20 minutes to pack up, you will have been there for an hour and a half, and that along with the 2 x 30 minute travel you had to do is what you are charging for, ie a 20 minute show and two and a half hours to three hours of your time.

[Chris]

And if I was only going to offer a 20 min private show , I presume I couldn't charge very much.

Personally I consider myself a professional rather than an employee working on a time rate. I am selling my talent and experience and the entertainment it brings. They pay for me to be there.

(although my preference is busking)

Possibly it is, Nick. Perhaps you might also prefer travel by Stage Coach? There's not much opportunity for that either.

[Nick Jackson]

Personally I consider myself a professional rather than an employee working on a time rate. I am selling my talent and experience and the entertainment it brings. They pay for me to be there.

And having seen you work, there is no doubt about that whatsoever. I, however, am in a rather different category. Professionally I am a musician, journalist and teacher. When it comes to Punch, I am an amateur.

Perhaps you might also prefer travel by Stage Coach? There's not much opportunity for that either.

The thing that knocks busking on the head it the huge licence fee. Back in the early 90s, Wirral Borough Council wanted more than £3K for a licence to work New Brighton prom on Sundays and Bank Holidays from May to September. Goodness know what it would cost now.