Routine Help

Anything relevant

Re: Routine Help

Postby Chris » 07 Feb 2013, 11:49

While I don't imagine much British-German trade was going on actually during the wars I don't think there is evidence of much effect. I imagine the dwindling of that wealthy dilettante strata of society coupled with the loss of the Empire did more to reduce the demand in the English speaking world than did any anti German sentiment. The Hohensteiner movement probably explains a decline in Germany.

The carved Kasperl puppets all over Germany are a different thing, but relate to the above. They are die Hohensteiner design dating back to the 20s - the movement that sanitized Kasperl who wasn't always a cute little boy with a grandma. You can read all about it on this website.
Image
It's good to squawk!
Image
User avatar
Chris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3224
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 11:13
Location: North Wales

Re: Routine Help

Postby Chris » 07 Feb 2013, 12:49

Chris vdC wrote
Do you have a copy of "Victorian Boys' Annuals" Chris?

Actually what I said was "The very same idea is illustrated in one of those Victorian Boys' Annuals." There wasn't just one. "Every Boy's Book" (1868) contained a section on making Punch and Judy, as did "Every Little Boy's Book" (circa 1870), "Parlour Amusements" by Professor Hoffman (n.d.), "What Shall We Do Tonight?" by Leger D.Mayne (1873) and "The Boy's Own Book" (circa 1910). However when I come to look the illustration I was thinking about was not in a boy's annual as such, but in the earlier "Art of Amusing" by Frank Bellew (1866). apologies for the grotty scan.
Image


What the text says is "A method of carving a Punch's head from a machine-cut piece of soft wood, a cylinder with a projecting flange for the nose and chin."
He also suggests that turned shapes can have features painted on or added with putty.

Also interesting is this US advert for Punch figures in 1879. Please note they are all Handsomely dressed and cost $1.25 each or a Superior Punch and Judy Theatre, made portable for travelling, fitted with a Stage, Performing Shelf and Covering, Complete for $12.

Image
It's good to squawk!
Image
User avatar
Chris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3224
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 11:13
Location: North Wales

Re: Routine Help

Postby Tony James » 07 Feb 2013, 13:20

Flights of fancy, calumny and hogwash. Gosh – I never would have thought it!

I simply responded to a question about Blowey the Clown. It was intended to position that figure - which is an odd-made piece which works so well and indeed Bryan Clarke still has on his website and appears identical to the original – position it in the early development of Supreme figures and in doing so, position Supreme in the post war P&J market.

And to achieve that it was necessary to glance – no more so – at what was available immediately pre war.

Whatever the early market for toy sets and family sets of figures supplied from Germany the UK pre war market for figures intended for the performing market was small and met by people whose output was small.

As to the detail, I’m not arguing either. I wasn’t suggesting Wal Kent only worked on pre turned heads. He made a range of puppets other than P&J. What I was explaining was how he, Wal Kent, ex music hall act, ex variety theatre performer who had gone through considerable poverty, suffering and hard times and become a P&J man at Sheerness, how he went on to become a maker of figures. Something he had never done before (according to Fred Tickner) and who did so because he needed a job to earn him an income to carry him through his retirement. He was heading for 70 and died in 1961 at the age of 81.

It was Fred who helped him find a way into figure making. Remember, Fred had made puppets since the 1920s and had experimented with all sorts of methods including a laminating system which sounds similar to that which Richard Coombs has recently illustrated here.

I never suggested the turned head style was invented by either Wal or Fred – they were looking for a way for Wal to produce heads quickly. To overcome all the time consuming carving away of waste wood to ‘reveal the head within’ so to speak. Wal was establishing a business, so production needed to be as quick as possible. It wasn’t to be a sideline like Fred.

It worked and it worked very well. Wal struggled sometimes and Fred helped him with the more delicate work. Geoff Felix believes Fred probably helped Wal more with marionettes and other puppets but I have seen a picture of a Punch example which is believed to be a joint effort.

Coming to Edwin and Supreme those figures are based on the style Wal Kent and Fred Tickner created. Edwin of course traded on the term Wal Kent style. It was a good selling point and Edwin was a great salesman. You can call it the Victorian Boys Annual style if you wish. Perhaps I should have used different terminology.

Instead of ‘traditional’ let’s call it ‘Relief Carving’ and in place of ‘Wal Kent style’ use the term ‘Intaglio Carving’. Does that make it clearer?

The fact is, Joe produced a copy of Edwin’s own Wal Kent figures and Joe did it his way. No one has suggested they were replicas – not even Edwin. Tony took over and copied from Joe and did it his way. And Bryan followed on. I used the term ‘variants’ to indicate the makers individuality and by that I meant what I have just expanded upon.

I’m pleased that I don’t believe we are in any disagreement about Wal being the first (modest) mass producer of P&J figures which probably means that Edwin became the first and only super mass producer!

Unless of course we go back to Germany!
Tony James

Magic With A Punch!
User avatar
Tony James
Joey's Jewels
Joey's Jewels
 
Posts: 664
Joined: 08 Aug 2006, 21:22
Location: Cheshire UK

Re: Routine Help

Postby Chris » 07 Feb 2013, 13:31

Well Germany or Austria certainly, they were mass producing for decades - but doesn't Quisto predate Kent? He certainly mass produced crocodiles and dragons.
Image

Professors David Wilde and Geoff Felix closely examine Quisto's workmanship. His dragons and crocs came in a choice of sizes!

And for the Wal Kent fans, a marionette with certainly owes nothing to the lathe.

Image
It's good to squawk!
Image
User avatar
Chris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3224
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 11:13
Location: North Wales

Re: Routine Help

Postby Tony James » 07 Feb 2013, 13:38

CvdC wrote:This is for me very interesting stuff Tony and Chris. I do wish you would illustrate your points with photos.
Do you have a copy of "Victorian Boys' Annuals" Chris?
And what is the typical Wal Kent style?
What would Green and Parsonage puppets look like?
And Tony ""traditional carved style", are there specific examples?
[/url]


I think Chris has now posted pics of Victorian publications. And I have already now explained about my way of thinking regarding traditional relief carving and the faster intaglio style.

Pictures are another thing. There are plenty about on the internet. I may have missed on here a reference to a particular site but I imagined everyone was aware.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/punchpuppets/

Here you may compare Fred Tickner, Wal Kent, Joe Parsonage, Tony Green, Bryan Clarke along with others.

I shall be very surprised if this site is not known to anyone here.
Tony James

Magic With A Punch!
User avatar
Tony James
Joey's Jewels
Joey's Jewels
 
Posts: 664
Joined: 08 Aug 2006, 21:22
Location: Cheshire UK

Re: Routine Help

Postby Chris » 07 Feb 2013, 13:53

Yes lovely pictures. There are a couple of other Punch picture collections on Flikr. I think Daniel Hanton has one. But of course most of the makers are represented on this website, and have been for many years - certainly long before Flikr was even a flicker of an idea.

And one of these days we'll see David Wilde's wonderfull collection all photographed for our delight. You can get a taste perhaps from his website http://www.londonpunch.co.uk
And I seem to remember some pics on Geoff Felix's website. He too has a choice collection. www.geofffelix.com
It's good to squawk!
Image
User avatar
Chris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3224
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 11:13
Location: North Wales

Re: Routine Help

Postby Chris » 07 Feb 2013, 18:05

By the way, anyone who was confused, as I was, by Tony's differentiation between itaglio and relief carving perhaps these pictures will illustrate the difference.
Image
It's good to squawk!
Image
User avatar
Chris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3224
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 11:13
Location: North Wales

Re: Routine Help

Postby CvdC » 08 Feb 2013, 01:52

That flickr collection is amazing. Just think how much is available online today compared with when you started your web site Chris. I remember being excited when you put up photo of the different puppet hands.

Now we can discuss the nuances of puppet making till the cows come home.
It has been my experience that I am always true from my point of view, and am often wrong from the point of view of my honest critics. I know that we are both right from our respective points of view. - Gandhi (Having a bob each way.)
User avatar
CvdC
Joey's Jewels
Joey's Jewels
 
Posts: 1032
Joined: 12 Aug 2006, 01:02
Location: Antipodes

Re: Routine Help

Postby Trevek » 08 Feb 2013, 09:21

Chris wrote:
The carved Kasperl puppets all over Germany are a different thing, but relate to the above. They are die Hohensteiner design dating back to the 20s - the movement that sanitized Kasperl who wasn't always a cute little boy with a grandma. You can read all about it on this website.


Thanks for the answer Chris. Interesting food for thought.

As for the Hohensteiner, I have already read the article. I was just pointing out how, should one go into a toy shop in Germany, there are wide selections of Kasperls, compared to the relatively few (if any) shops in UK which sell mass produced Punches. Kasperl, of course, has a few skeletons in his closet from the 1930's and 40's, so it is interesting how he has continued to be part of German childhood.
Trevek
Big Banger
Big Banger
 
Posts: 210
Joined: 06 Oct 2010, 09:41

Re: Routine Help

Postby Chris » 08 Feb 2013, 22:06

CvdC wrote
Just think how much is available online today compared with when you started your web site Chris.

Yes indeed, it is incredible the way the web has progressed. And although it totally fascinates me I'm not sure that it is a good thing. Two things bother me. The first is that because there is so much information available at the touch of a button people tend to assume that all the information is to be found on the web - and it isn't. The only information on the web is that which someone has taken the trouble to upload, but there tends to be a view that if it can't be found on the web it either doesn't exist or doesn't matter. Now if journalists, authors and students use the web as their sole source of research then a great deal will be lost over time. I am thinking of those bits of info tucked away in books that nobody has bothered to scan and digitise, the things we used to find by visiting reference libraries and second hand book shops. The last fe libraries I have performed in are themselves becoming as much a place of free internet access as a place to find books.
The second fear I have is that because it is so easy to spend hours and hours looking at youtube videos and pictures on flikr and searching for obscure Punch references, then less and less time is available for having a go at making Puppets, and rehearsing puppets. It takes quite a bit of self discipline to not switch on the computer, and once on if you are anything like me you are soon engrossed and then --- several hours later! And practical jobs have to wait for another day.
And those who aren't hooked on the internet seem similarly afflicted with their smart phones. How can you be expected to make puppets, or do anything practical when you have to check your phone screen every four minutes in case someone has texted some very important message.
I can see the problems, but I haven't got an answer. But I can sympathise with one or two active puppeteers I know who deliberately don't own a computer. They tend to be the ones who do make their own puppets.
It's good to squawk!
Image
User avatar
Chris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3224
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 11:13
Location: North Wales

Re: Routine Help

Postby Richard Coombs » 09 Feb 2013, 14:09

I have absolutely loved all the info in this strand .
Thank you for all the photos and history and information.

Interesting to see Tony and Chris' memories of the Supreme period.

Even 'perceived ' history is a a building block of how we view the past ( indeed some might say that ALL history is viewed through some Historians personal magnifying glass , and is therefore perceived ).

But I love all the background to 'barrel-turning' and 'mass production' and what that means to different people.

And the Flickr album was a wonderful revelation ...and Tony ...NO ..I had not seen it before .
Wow what a wonderful collection that guy has !


The more I see of Bryan Clarkes work ...the more and more I respect the man.

It was said on here that he has varying standards of workmanship from mass producing to his commissions ....and while that is doubtless true , Bryan on "cheap" day is better than most at their best ( I say cheap day not 'Bad' day ..because his work is never bad ..he simply tailors the hours put in to to cost paid .....and that is a true skill in itself )
But is faces are really characterful and 'alive' .

Geoffs work is quite outstanding ...but he does not 'mass make'' ...indeed only does rare commissions.

But Bryans stuff is legendary in both its vast output and quality.


Anyhooo Im rambling ....just wanted to say thank you for all the good posts on this topic.
...And yes Chris ( S) ...it is very easy to see the hours slip by online.

So Im off to do some making , sadly not puppets , Im at an "Austin Powers " themed party tonight and am going as "Goldmember" ..so I got to make some gold shoes .

Life certainly doesnt lack variety right now :-)

Richard
User avatar
Richard Coombs
Joey's Jewels
Joey's Jewels
 
Posts: 839
Joined: 16 Aug 2006, 09:42
Location: Lichfield Staffs UK

Re: Routine Help

Postby Harvey » 30 Apr 2013, 08:50

I am acctually haveing to renovate blowey the clown again due to his hat falling apart.
The Young Professor http://www.professor-harvo.xbuild.com at the age of 18
User avatar
Harvey
Thick Link
Thick Link
 
Posts: 177
Joined: 12 Dec 2012, 10:21
Location: Titchfield Common PO144NA

Previous

Return to Punch Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron