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Postby Chris » 05 Aug 2007, 21:09

Err, I hesitate to mention it, but isn't there a website called Punchandjudy.com all set up for digital archive material?


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Postby David Wilde » 05 Aug 2007, 21:42

Well James I taught you well,both clowns are Quisto,although not very well painted,so is the policeman.

Long neck,is Wal Kent,dont see to many of these.

The dog your guess is as good as mine?

The clown on the rite was made to balance chairs on his nose they would normally come in a pair,there is one in the Peter Blake collection and also Stella Richards has the pair plus the chairs!

Les the ghost you have is quite intresting,could you post picture?

I have seen Quisto puppets with out glass eyes they are also very good characters?

One more question has any one ever seen a Fred Tickner DEVIL?

I have never seen one or heard of any one who owns one!

By the way Les, Stan quigley did not make figures but was a performer,who had two sets of Quisto figures,his trade mark was to dress as a clown when performing,there is a great interview with him in John Steads book,well worth reading!

Half the interview has not long been in the PJF newsheet,did you not see it?
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Postby lesclarke » 05 Aug 2007, 22:47

Chris, this site does so much so well, including the Punch Makers galleries of course. Whilst the show really is 'the thing' many of us are also fascinated by the figures, and whilst it would be to an extent repeating information there could be a place for a single use 'Who made that?' type of site.
Of course this site has just helped me to identify the makers of several of my figures, and the process itself has been interesting, so perhaps there is no need.

David, 'both' clowns? Do you mean all three? or is one not Quisto? They have been crudely overpainted.
Very interesting about the chair balancing.

David, just to be sure, which Ghost do you mean?
If you mean the one shown on my web site,(History page) this is I believe a Bryan Clarke head, but with my additions of eyeballs, pointed ears, bobbles on head, and skeletal hands, so not yet part of our 'heritage.'
He isn't used generally these days as he is too unwieldly to pop out of a suitcase, which in my usual show takes the place of a coffin.
Thank you all for your information. Just need to find out who D. Tipper was.
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Postby David Wilde » 05 Aug 2007, 22:55

The clown on the rite with the water sqiurter stck in his nose is not quisto,the other 2 are!

Yes I did mean that ghost,thats answered that!

A picture of your Quisto Devil would also be intresting!
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Postby Professor Eek » 05 Aug 2007, 23:33

Les - I think there is a definite need for a single body of Punch Showmen - A single group would definitely receive more support from funding bodies AND be able to work more effectively to promote Punch and his activites ... anyhar ... a previous post by myself on this subject was removed from this board as it is a 'contentious issue' I'm told so I'll agree but comment no futher than that.

Good as this site is ... and it is good Chris ... it can be a bit of a maze for the uninitiated. I get lost regulalry and still feel as though I'm being told off if I mention I can't find something.

I still think a gallery of working, and historical, punchmens figures, puppets, histories and fit-ups would be a) interesting and b) a useful historical resource.

When suggested before, it seemed that collating this would prove a difficult endevour so I am happy to offer my services in collating such information and then providing Chris, or whoever wants to publish it online, with a catologue of detailed info for current and historical Punch data and images if that's what folk would want.

There is the Punch Directory and there is the Gallery on this site - but I think what's being suggested fits between the two.

Obviously here is the best place for it but if Chris feels it's too much I can investigate setting up an archive elsewhere.
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Postby lesclarke » 05 Aug 2007, 23:36

Right, let's see then, the clown on right has similar, but not identical sewn fabric hands as clown on left, both have glass eyes. Just examined them again more closely and for the first time noticed both have identical material as the lining.

Ghost sorted.

I originally had two similar figures, Policeman and Devil as shown on History page with Ghost as mentioned above.

Unfortunately, not realising the Devil was by Quisto, and thinking it was 'just another' unidentifiable figure, when the policeman, (who in recent flickr photo is shown to be 'tired') was in need of a renovation, instead of renovating him, and losing all the character, I retired him and converted the Devil figure into the new Policeman. And then made my own new more 'grand' Devil.

I'll have to trawl through my older digital shots and 35mm photos to find a picture of the original smallish soft-horned Quisto Devil.
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Postby lesclarke » 06 Aug 2007, 00:13

In the search for old photos, which happen to be quite near my computer, I've discovered/remembered another Ghost. As if this wasn't getting complicated enough!

I'll post picture in near future, along with small Quisto Devil.

New Ghost/Skeleton , papier mache head, niceley modelled, skull type head, no glass eyes. Has same springy curtain wire type arms and hands on the wrong arms as has the previous (on flickr) extending neck clown. The one in the middle.

Can anyone still follow this in their head? Would anyone like to sum it all up?

So, did Quisto, as well as his larger figures also make smaller Policeman and Devil and were these earlier? Also any other smaller characters?
Did he also make all three clowns and this newly described Ghost/Skeleton?
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Postby Tony James » 06 Aug 2007, 00:53

David - Tickner Devil

I appreciate you probably meant has any actually got or handled a Tickner Devil but there is a reference picture of one in George Speaight's book, plate 22 opposite page 113. Credited to Percy Press.

Strange to say it looks very like the Wal Kent Devil and even stranger, quite like the Joe Parsonage Devil he made for Supreme though that has a rather excellent curving, pointed beard.

It's difficult to see in the picture whether the Tickner devil has such a curving beard though it looks as if it might have had. looks like a bit of costume masking it.
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Postby lesclarke » 06 Aug 2007, 09:09

Small Quisto Devil and 'new' Ghost pic here, along with Policeman.
By this time Devil and Policeman already poorly overpinted.
Other pics on flickr

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1350/102 ... a0c3_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1085/102 ... 8cb2_b.jpg
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Postby Chris » 06 Aug 2007, 13:05

I still think a gallery of working, and historical, punchmens figures, puppets, histories and fit-ups would be a) interesting and b) a useful historical resource.

When suggested before, it seemed that collating this would prove a difficult endevour


Please do not misrepresent me Eek.

That is not what was suggested. What was suggested was pictures of professors and their puppets.
It was not turned down because of any difficulty in collating it, it was turned down on the grounds that there were hundreds of pictures of punchmen with their puppets and fit-ups already on the site.

For the past 10 years I have been asking for material for this site. With the notable exception of Kasper and Chris van der Craats, who has been very generous with material, and help from Geoff Felix, John Alexander, Mark Poulton and Nick Jackson, the bulk I have been sent is pictures of regulars' fit-ups and their puppets, the same ones repeated with only the venues changed.

You can see for yourself just how few have contributed to Punchman's Tips, and Punchman's bits of business, and the script section.

You suggest that there is only the Punch Directory and the Gallery on this site and that what you suggest falls between the two - but again this just isn't true:

I set up section called <a href="http://www.punchandjudy.com/hallofame.htm">Who's Who of Punch and Judy</a> with the aim to be "gallery of working, and historical, punchmens figures, puppets, histories and fit-ups" - isn't that what you are suggesting.
Have a look at it. It allowed the upload of as much text as wanted, and pictures as well. See what it produced.
I suspended it because the only people who were making use of it were the spammers with their adverts for tcp etc.

As to Les's point about Punch makers. As he himself knows in the Picture Galleries is one called <a href="http://www.punchandjudy.com/gal5.htm">The Punch Makers.</a> This was set up with the idea of helping identify puppets. In this one gallery, all collected together, are examples of the work of:
Kent, Felix, Parsonage, Battey, Tickner, Quisto, Holden, Barnard, Clarke, Edwards, Wade, Poulton and Davey.
Anyone is welcome to offer additions to that gallery.
Also, with the ability to load pictures to this message board, with David Wilde and others on tap, you have a good chance of identifying any puppet. Just what more along these lines do you want. If you have a specific idea Les, then please email it to me and we'll see what we can do.

Recently I added the facility for people to upload pictures for this message board. I also included the facility to upload pictures for the website, with the possibility of including a caption or explanatory comments. In addition there was a separate upload for Text. If I was hoping for the odd illustrated article I was disappointed. In fact most of the pictures sent to the website section were mistakenly meant for the Message Board.

It is so easy to criticise - but takes much more effort to make an actual contribution.

There is one place where most people seem to have no difficulty in contributing - that is the Directory. I can't think why.

I should add my thanks to Sean and James for their work on the "Where to See" sections. But here again, it takes a lot of work to maintain these, and difficult to sustain enthusiasm if nobody is bothering to send information. Have you sent James the details of your public bookings? Most people haven't bothered it seems.

As to your point about PunchandJudy.com being a maze which you find difficult to negotiate - well all I can do is apologise. It is obviously my poor design. I do try and improve it as and when I get time.


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Postby Professor Eek » 06 Aug 2007, 13:29

Even my carefully worded post seems to have caused you offence Chris.

Once again I feel I'm being 'told off' for not knowing everything available and knowing how to use something.

I'll follow the links posted and see what I see ....
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Postby lesclarke » 06 Aug 2007, 14:17

I'm very happy with the way things are Chris, compared to just 10 years ago there is a fantasic amount of info available here. Not everyone is going at the same speed, equipment wise and skill wise. I only updated my computer about 4 months ago and it's only now I can quickly take, sort and move photos around. I can only cope with the techy things when I'm in the mood.

I was pleased to see the 'where to see' section appear, and from memory I think I supported it the first year, and sent in half of the second years venues and dates. The reason I stopped was fairly straightforward in that I'm not the greatest typist, I'm OK for stuff like this, just rambling on, but looking at a list of my dates and venues and keying them in is laborious for me. I know I could have probably have phoned them in, but I don't actually have a list, it's more wallchart and diary. Perhaps the facility is worth saving, perhaps we could directly key in our own entries? Has anyone any feedback on how often is was found to be use by enthusiasts or Joe Public. I know people sometimes post an enquiry here saying "any shows around in Surrey next weekend?"

I wonder how long before we can have the benefit of an artificial-intelligence-based system that will scan the photos we send and conclude...

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Postby billywand » 06 Aug 2007, 14:42

Hi Les,

All my intelligence is artificial !!!!!!

Just saw your photos, and also looked over your website. Great stuff
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Postby David Wilde » 06 Aug 2007, 21:45

Rite Les the devil is quisto,they are also qite scarce!

Not shore about the ghost,would have tohave a better shot!

The person that had the figures befor you,has been redressing them that is why the lining is the same,so to clarifie the left clown and the one in the middle are Quisto the one on the rite with the water squirter,(which is not an original feature)is the balencing chair clown!

Tony you are rite,the picture in Geore speights book is Wal Kent and not Tickner,I have used all of these figures and have a couple of them!

Percy used to change the hands around on Tickner puppets,and put Wal Kent hands in the sleeves because hr prefered the extensions in them!

By the way Les most makers made a parlour size set for people that whanted smaller or liter puppets!

I also have Percys China Man which is also Wal Kent,he talks about it in Edwins book,Magic with puppets!

Im afraid George Speight did not research the puppet makers much,as he also talks about a set of Quisto figures that he owned,they were in fact Peter Bourne!

Les afraid to say that apart from only 1 other Quisto Devil,yours is the only again that I have come across!

There is a wealth of knowledge photos, articles,video out there,most of it has been collected by a few Punch men including myself,if any one does want to know about certain points I will always do my best to find out.Geoff should always be a good starting point,his archive is the best on Punch there is,I know myself that I have added many bits to it,as have many other Punch men so the infomation is in one place!

The longer you perform Punch and the more you mix with other Punch men,the more stories you hear some going back to the turn of the centuary,I was very lucky to work with what seemed like the last generation of the old Punch men,and I used to listen to stories and tales of Punch men going back years,and luckily have stored most of them in my head!

A few years ago James made up a tape of bits that are Pathe news real,which you can look at on the internet,some of the bits are real gems,(yes and evan the Harliquin puppet theartre is there to!)

There are some amazing slides of Jessons show which are in the John Blundle colection,they are not the same ones that are used in the Jessie pope book,and they give you a snap shot of what a real Victorian Punch show was all about!

I know that Mark Pollton came across one of the most amazing pictures of probaley one of the first ever mass gatherings of Punch performers,(you have to see this picture to belive it),maybe one day it will be avalible for all to see!

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Postby lesclarke » 06 Aug 2007, 22:20

Very, very interesting David. I suppose the Quisto devil could be reborn/recreated again in the future, as he is at present working as my small Policeman. I kept the devil costume, and his cap and fabric horns, and his little hoof type hands. He had been repainted a strange mettalic red.
I'd be interested to know the paint style of the original.

It's interesting to learn about the parlour sized sets.

I can take a better pic of the Ghost, as I said he seems to have same wire arms and similar, though not identical hands as the middle extending neck clown.

I've swapped hands around on several figures I've remodelled over the years, no doubt this could confuse someone in the future.

How about a guide advising people how to identify their figures David.
(I'm very good at suggesting work for others)
Obviously points you make such as figures being re-costumed help avoid people jumping to the wrong conclusion.It could include tips such as - look at the hands, and also cautions such as - remember somebody may have swapped the hands.

I used to collect and sometimes deal in old toys, and all dealers are aware that even the previous owners of objects can get their history totally wrong. People swear they were bought a toy in 1960 for their tenth birthday, when it wasn't produce until 1970!

I've just remembered another interesting figure I've a few questions about, but I'll leave it a while. Thanks again.
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