Papié Maché

This is the place for Technical Tips, Questions and Answers.

Re: Papié Maché

Postby Chris » 01 Mar 2011, 16:17

Write what you like on the workshop section - just don't mess mine up.
I don't have the capability to insert posts retrospectively.

Why not? Everyone else can. There's an EDIT button, click it and wonder of wonders you can Edit your mistakes. Or perhaps your computer which can't handle pictures can't handle edits either?
As I've offered before, if you are incapable of uploading pictures then send them to me by email or snail mail and I will upload them for you.
I grew up around whitewash, we used gallons of it on the farm, and never used any pigment to make it white,

Of course you didn't - whiting isn't a pigment it is part of whitewash, whitewash consisting of slaked lime (calcium hydroxide) and chalk (whiting). It has absolutely nothing to do with white lead or china clay.
Your recipe of
Yellow ochre and 'bag blue' but the basic recipe was always putty lime, water, animal glue, (As a binder) and 'Isal' disinfectant.
, with or without Portland cement, may have uses round the farm but certainly isn't whitewash.
My intention was certainly not to in any way critisise your excellent method of construction

I never for one moment suggested that you had criticised my method. What you did was added confusion by jumping in with misinformation.
I suppose we should be used to that by now.
It's good to squawk!
Image
User avatar
Chris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3260
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 11:13
Location: North Wales

Re: Papié Maché

Postby johnstoate » 02 Mar 2011, 00:02

[quote="Chris"]Whiting is the stuff that makes whitewash white. :!: - There IS a difference between 'insert' and 'edit' And I do agree (As should anyone actually bothering to follow this thread) That white lead and china clay have nothing to do with whitewash. Otherwise, - Go pick on someone else - I try to respect the fact that your site has various forums, You just alienate everyone who has the temerity to express an alternative view, or any opinion, regardless of experience, which doesn't fit your 'status quo' There was a recent comment, (Not mine) on the 'chat' forum about how quiet it was on here. Perhaps you should ask yourself why???
As too oft before....'Workshop..Meeting closed' :twisted:
Last edited by johnstoate on 02 Mar 2011, 21:19, edited 1 time in total.
John
Weaselly distinguished, Stoatelly different!!
User avatar
johnstoate
Joey's Jewels
Joey's Jewels
 
Posts: 821
Joined: 26 Mar 2007, 15:07
Location: Lancashire

Re: Papié Maché

Postby Chris » 02 Mar 2011, 10:46

There IS a difference between 'insert' and 'edit'

You really can be very dense John. If you insert something into something already written that is part of the process of editing.
If you want to alter your post, by inserting or by deleting, simply click the EDIT button and do it. Just try it, it really isn't difficult.

I do agree (As should anyone actually bothering to follow this thread) That whiting and china clay have nothing to do with whitewash.

You are just being silly now. Whiting, as a principal ingredient of whitewash, has everything to do with whitewash.

Yes it does go quiet on the message board at times. It does on all forums. I always assume that it is when nobody has anything to say. Perhaps you too could embrace the idea of not just spouting for the sake of it?
It's good to squawk!
Image
User avatar
Chris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3260
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 11:13
Location: North Wales

Re: Papié Maché

Postby Richard Coombs » 02 Mar 2011, 19:16

Like Chris , I have used paper mache in the past .
The 'Bishop' in my show is the last remaining non wooden figure made this way .

As a child I had no idea where to get whiting ..the puppet books I got out from the library all sang its praises. But our local DIY shop didnt have any.

But I improvised with a SMALL amount of Polyfiller instead. ( probably a couple of heaped table spoonfulls into a cantaloupe melon size ball of paper pulp )

My Pulp was made sticky by wallpaper paste , rather than Chris' flour and water glue.

Everyone makes do with their own recipe and methods I guess.

Surprisingly the ployfiller didnt 'set' right away - probably because it was so diluted - .
And unused pulp stayed `Ok' in cling film in the fridge for many days .

I would make up batches of 'cores' like Chris with a rolled up newspaper 'log' ( for inside of neck ) then scrunched up newspaper 'padding' tied around the top with sewing thread to fatten the head area. Then quite a thick coating of the paper mache stodge coated it all and was first pricked all over with a darning needle to encourage drying , before being put into Mums gas oven on a very low heat for about 4 to 5 hours.

The smell , not unpleasant , still reminds of childhood.

Another day I would twist out the support 'log' and pull on the sewing threads to fish out the srunched up paper ( it never all came out , some stuck , but that didnt matter)

Then I used the left over pulp to model features onto the cores ( using only the least 'browned' and scorched ones ) - this was in days before fan assisted ovens I think.
Then another baking session ...but less time , as the wet pulp of noses and brows and mouths were less thick than the core pulp had been.

Result ..? The 'features' were Ok . but sometimes the backs of the heads overcooked a bit.
An adults patience would have let things 'air dry' ... but I was a kid and just wanted to make puppets to play with ..fast.

But several layers of torn newspaper applied in little bits with wallpaper paste made everything strong. I would do the 'edge' of the neck and up inside the head as far as I could reach too ..ensuring a smooth place for fingers to go.



I think why the polyfiller worked was because as well as soaked newspaper , my pulp also had lots of broken up egg boxes and fruit trays ( the pulp kind) . This put extremely fine fibres in with the rougher newspaper , and resulted in quite a smooth pulp , which would have required only a little of the elusive whiting , had i been able to get any .

I saved my pocket money for a cheap blender and metal seive .

All the water and paper and pulp got 'whizzed up' for a minute or two , and was then tipped into the sieve in the sink , and most of the water squeezed out . wallpaper paste - make up thickly - was then kneaded in . only when it was all congealed nicely together did I flatten it out , sprinkle the Polyfiller over , and fold it all together before kneading again.

I havnt done paper pulp for years , must give it a go again soon.
And this time I will source some Whiting to finally see what all the fuss is about :-)
All the Best Richard.
User avatar
Richard Coombs
Joey's Jewels
Joey's Jewels
 
Posts: 866
Joined: 16 Aug 2006, 09:42
Location: Lichfield Staffs UK

Re: Papié Maché

Postby Chris » 02 Mar 2011, 21:54

Yes Richard, I have too have used cellulose (wallpaper) paste in later years but can't say it was any better than flour paste except that perhaps in that it doesn't go sour. But in my early days it was a matter of cost. It seems unbelievable in these days of affluent waste that at one time the cost of a packet of wallpaper paste would be quite a significant item to a working class family where every penny of the father's income was probably earmarked. Yet a bit of flour was always available in the kitchen because most Mums cooked and baked using ingredients rather than opening packets and defrosting. Similarly whitewash was cheap and much used, and whiting was readily available for a couple of pennies at the local ironmongers. The difficulty these days, never mind sourcing the whiting, is finding an ironmonger. Do they still exist?

Actually over the years I have experimented with different glues for Papié Maché - especially when layering. Remember Cascamite? I tried that. Not a great success, it added a lot of weight as did several other glues. I also have used a lot of kraft paper (brown wrapping) for bodies and bigger heads. It is remarkably strong. Geoff Felix who is expert with Papié Maché uses sugar paper I believe, and he also uses wallpaper paste.
It's good to squawk!
Image
User avatar
Chris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3260
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 11:13
Location: North Wales

Re: Papié Maché

Postby lesclarke » 03 Mar 2011, 21:34

I already have enough half finished projects, but like the sound of the method, and it is obviously well tried and tested.

I never managed to find whiting a few years back when trying to make Gesso, but after following Chris' link to Walters, I searched a bit more, and found 2 printers suppliers (the arty type of platemaking etc) who sold Whiting powder.
As to be expected if you want 25kg it works out reasonable per Kg, but more expensive for smaller sizes.

Found some on ebay by company making mirrors, leaded glass etc, again 25kg available, but also a 500g, so 1.1 lbs for £4.35 including postage. Sounds a reasonable amount to start with, as it is only used on the outer shell.

On ebay, search for 'tub of whitting powder' yes, double 't' it's spelt wrong on the listing.

Image
As if I haven't got enough to do today, with all I've got to do today.
User avatar
lesclarke
Joey's Jewels
Joey's Jewels
 
Posts: 758
Joined: 14 Sep 2006, 17:12
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire

Re: Papié Maché

Postby Chris » 03 Mar 2011, 23:27

Thanks Les, I've passed on the Ebay link to Miraiker so she's fixed up now. Actually I had quite forgotten that it was used in printing - although I've seen it often enough. I did not know that it was used in the stained glass trade.
Let us know how you get on with your experiments.
It's good to squawk!
Image
User avatar
Chris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3260
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 11:13
Location: North Wales

Re: Whiting

Postby Chris » 04 Mar 2011, 15:20

I've just had another look for whiting and it really isn't difficult to find. If you search Google for artists materials whiting uk you will find dozens of sources at a range of prices.
Here are a couple:
http://www.newcastle-arts-centre.co.uk/stock.htm
(look under primers)
http://www.greatart.co.uk/WHITING-barens-rollers.htm
(£3.95 plus vat for 1kg)
http://www.bristolfineart.co.uk/oil-paints-and-mediums/oil-painting-mediums/rabbit-skin-glue-whiting-and-marble-dust/c-rsg/
(£6 for 1kg but only £8 for 3kg)
It's good to squawk!
Image
User avatar
Chris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3260
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 11:13
Location: North Wales

papier-mâché

Postby CvdC » 06 Mar 2011, 03:00

papier-mâché - to be pedantic
Surely whiting can simply be bought from an artist's supplier. If the purpose of it is simply to whiten the pulp then any white powder, such as Richard uses would do the trick. Many recipes for papier-mâché seem to be quite old and predate many of the materials now available, such as water based glue and polly filler.
BTW I once did some whitewashing and for that I used lime. Whiting, chalk, lime, plaster of paris maybe essentially it is all the same?
It has been my experience that I am always true from my point of view, and am often wrong from the point of view of my honest critics. I know that we are both right from our respective points of view. - Gandhi (Having a bob each way.)
User avatar
CvdC
Joey's Jewels
Joey's Jewels
 
Posts: 1032
Joined: 12 Aug 2006, 01:02
Location: Antipodes

Re: papier-mâché

Postby Chris » 06 Mar 2011, 12:42

Thanks for your correction of the French. That reminds me of a funny incident in 1965. Colwyn Bay was hosting Britain's second International Puppet Festival and the presidium of UNIMA were attending. We had housed the various delegates with a variety of professional people of our acquaintance. Dr Zilagi (spelling?) of Hungary had been housed with Carl and Annette. He spoke little English and they had no Hungarian so they managed with French which he spoke well, Carl and Annette less so.
In Britain we refer to newspapers as papers, so the first morning at breakfast Annette wondered if he wanted to look at the newspaper:
"Desire vous le papier?"
"Pardon Madam!!!"
Apparently he thought she was asking him whether he wanted Toilet Paper!"

Please read the previous posts Chris. You will find that I have explained why you use whiting - and it is not just to whiten it. You cannot use any white powder. The purpose of whiting in whitewash is to whiten but in the paper pulp context it acts as a lightweight filler and gives much the effect it does when used as a gesso primer for painting.
And no, it cannot be bought from any artists' supplier - that was Miraiker's problem - it can only be bought from an artists' supplier who a) knows what it is and b) stocks it. That is why I listed some uk companies that do, and suggested the appropriate Google search words to find others.
Lime, chalk,slaked lime, whiting and plaster of paris are related - but not the same thing.
Yes the recipes for papier-mâché are old - and papier-mâché objects have survived very many hundreds of years. Because the recipes pre-date some modern materials doesn't effect their efficiency.
However I hardly think it predates water based glue!
BTW whitewash is slaked lime (calcium hydroxide) and chalk (whiting).

The point is, there are hundreds of recipes and variations of recipes for papier-mâché pulp all of which have been used successfully by someone or other. There are no rights and wrongs. But someone asked for advice and I therefore gave, in some detail, my tried and trusted method. All I ask is that before people, with little or no experience of the subject, seek to promote variations that they should try the original.
It's good to squawk!
Image
User avatar
Chris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3260
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 11:13
Location: North Wales

Re: Papié Maché

Postby CvdC » 06 Mar 2011, 21:05

Yes I was mainly concerned with your french (should be desirez-vous above).
It has been my experience that I am always true from my point of view, and am often wrong from the point of view of my honest critics. I know that we are both right from our respective points of view. - Gandhi (Having a bob each way.)
User avatar
CvdC
Joey's Jewels
Joey's Jewels
 
Posts: 1032
Joined: 12 Aug 2006, 01:02
Location: Antipodes

Re: Papié Maché

Postby Chris » 06 Mar 2011, 22:58

Not at all - that was reported speech, and I told you that Annette's French was poor.
However since you are in a school teacher mode perhaps you could correct this for me:
Aristote traite de marionnettes sur la motion de Animaux. "Les mouvements d'animaux ne peuvent être comparés à ceux de marionnettes automatiques, qui mettent en jeu à l'occasion d'un petit mouvement; les leviers sont libérés, et frappent les cordes torsadées un contre l'autre". Marionnettes, par sa nature est un compagnies de marionnettes souple et inventive à moyen et à de nombreux travaux avec des combinaisons de formes de marionnettes, et d'intégrer des objets réels dans leurs performances. Ils pourraient, par exemple, intégrer les «objets du spectacle» tels que le papier déchiré pour la neige, ou un panneau avec les mots comme des dispositifs narratifs dans une production. Les éléments suivants sont, par ordre alphabétique, les formes classiques de base et de la marionnette: * Black marionnettes lumière - Une forme de théâtre de marionnettes où les marionnettes sont exploités sur une scène éclairée seulement d'un éclairage ultraviolet, ce qui permet de masquer le marionnettiste et accentue les couleurs de la marionnette. Les marionnettistes effectuer vêtu de noir sur un fond noir, avec le fond et le costume normalement de velours noir. Les marionnettistes manipulent les marionnettes à la lumière, alors qu'ils se positionner invisible contre le fond non éclairé noir. Contrôler ce que le public voit est une responsabilité majeure de tout marionnettiste, et l'éclairage blacklight offre une nouvelle manière d'y parvenir. Marionnettes de toutes tailles et de types peuvent être utilisés, et la lueur d'une manière puissante et magique. Le concept original de cette forme de marionnettes peuvent être attribués à des marionnettes Bunraku. * A la lumière noire * marionnettes Bunraku marionnettes - marionnettes Bunraku est un type de marionnettes en bois sculptés à l'origine fait de se démarquer grâce à l'éclairage de la torche. Développé au Japon plus d'un millier d'années et formalisée et combiné avec la musique de shamisen, à la fin du 16ème siècle, les marionnettistes robe de rester neutre sur un fond noir, bien que leur présence comme une sorte de chiffres «l'ombre», ajoute un pouvoir mystérieux de la marionnettes. Bunraku utilise traditionnellement trois marionnettistes d'opérer une marionnette qui est 2 / 3 grandeur nature
It's good to squawk!
Image
User avatar
Chris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3260
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 11:13
Location: North Wales

Re: Papié Maché

Postby Richard Coombs » 06 Mar 2011, 23:12

Thanks for doing the 'donkey work ' Chris , and finding Whiting suppliers on the Net.
Your search engine was much more forthcoming than mine ( or more likely , you were more thorough in your search )
Much Appreciated , Cheers .

Richard
User avatar
Richard Coombs
Joey's Jewels
Joey's Jewels
 
Posts: 866
Joined: 16 Aug 2006, 09:42
Location: Lichfield Staffs UK

Re: Papié Maché

Postby lesclarke » 16 Apr 2011, 15:56

I was interested in this method, as a year or so back I'd experimented with commercially available papier mache pulp mix and clay substitute modelling stuff. The results were promising, in that they were easy and clean to use, but I wasn't convinced about the strength of the finished surface to take knocks. Deciding to have a go at Chris' method, I dug these experiments out and they seemed stronger than I had remembered them at the time, and some test I had done coating areas with a mixture of PVA and talc seemed really tough. At the time I couldn't find whiting to make gesso.

Over the last few weeks I've had a go at Chris' method, using newsprint and pulping some thick sheets of strawboard I had, and test modelled them with and without the addition of whiting. I intend to post more details in the future, along with pics, but after a bad start with wallpaper paste, I switched to pva glue and it's been going well. Initially, ot being sure I'd got the mixture right , I was sceptical that it would turn out well, but overnight, features modelled in a smooth porridge - become almost as hard as wood, and the newsprint pulp with whiting can be worked on after setting to produce an almost rock like surface.

This is TOUGH STUFF!

For me the breakthrough in modelling this pm clay was not to attempt to 'push it around' too much, or having made a smooth suface, it then it cracks, and as Chris suggested the back of a teaspoon is the ideal modelling tool.

Image
Image
Image
As if I haven't got enough to do today, with all I've got to do today.
User avatar
lesclarke
Joey's Jewels
Joey's Jewels
 
Posts: 758
Joined: 14 Sep 2006, 17:12
Location: Huddersfield, West Yorkshire

Re: Papié Maché

Postby Chris » 16 Apr 2011, 23:23

Personally I find flour and water paste preferable to PVA, much easier to model with. PVA tends to thicken far too quickly. This is an advantage if you want overnight results but certainly doesn't allow for prolonged re-working.
It's good to squawk!
Image
User avatar
Chris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3260
Joined: 05 Jul 2006, 11:13
Location: North Wales

PreviousNext

Return to Punch Workshop

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron