Procenium sides

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Procenium sides

Postby RichardFlatter » 13 Oct 2007, 17:59

Hi,
Can anyone help me fix my procenium side pieces onto the frame? Any suggestions how to do this would be much apprieciated.

Regards Richard
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Postby CvdC » 13 Oct 2007, 21:49

Richard having made a few booths I have confronted this problem a number of times. I still don't think I have resolved it and would be interested in the replies you receive.
But I am sure there are all sorts of solutions. The sides can get knocked about a bit and certainly need to secured very well.
I have seen heavy duty velcro used.
Hinges that come apart can be used to hang them from the proscenium.My last attempt was to use the magnets that are for holding cupboard doors shut.
On the internet I have found these:
http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/more_pics.php?article_id=CSN-20
Which look promising and strong. A 20mm magnet will hold up to 71/2 kilos.
You could hang the top to the proscenium and use magnets to keep the sides against the uprights of the booth.
Just an idea.
By the way they give warnings about handling these magnets. Trust me you need to heed this warning. These are not fridge magnets. And don't let them near your credit or Oyster card.
It has been my experience that I am always true from my point of view, and am often wrong from the point of view of my honest critics. I know that we are both right from our respective points of view. - Gandhi (Having a bob each way.)
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Postby johnstoate » 14 Oct 2007, 11:49

Sounds like they might save you a lot of money short-term Chris!! :lol:
But seriously, I, too, have tried many and various solutions to this little problem over the years. The best to date is the pin hinge, but not the little 'Cabinet' type, the bigger, (3-4") version for hanging doors, coupled with a 'Cabin hook' as a back-stay to stop them flapping about. Another method that has worked to some degree, but that I have not yet fully perfected is to have a couple of blocks on the back face which fit around the uprights, These are reinforced with the small 'mending plates' (The little 90' brackets with holes available in most hardware shops) so that the last hole is 'proud' on the inside of the frame. This is to take the hook on a 'bungee' elastic, which then passes round the back two uprights of the frame, and back to the other wing board. The tension on this holds the wingboards in place. Mind you, the best idea that I've come up with yet is the one-piece proscenium! - The playboard, topboard support, (The topboard proper mounts into a couple of holes bored in this) and the side and wingboards all in one unit. The wingboards form doors on the front, which can be used as weather /security protection 'on site' and are secured open by 'cabin hooks' which then double as stays. The beauty of this type is that the curtains can be a permenant fixture, and the whole unit, fitted with a handle on the top/bottom, (Personal preference) becomes a case for the dolls& props with either the backdrop or backcloth forming the other side. The hookboard can be hinged into the bottom edge as well, allowing this to be used to carry the dolls 'hung' if the handle is on the 'base'-(If this is the carriage method, The curtains will need securing at the bottom with elastic or similar, and should always be closed for carriage to protect the paintwork on the wingboards from damage) - I know this may sound complicated, but anyone capable of building it should be able to get the idea, I hope! - but in any event, I am always available to clarify points if required. Hope it is of help - Best of luck!
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Postby Chris » 14 Oct 2007, 18:25

<blockquote><img src="../images/fixedsidepanels.gif" align="right">The easiest way is to have the proscenium side panels permanently fixed. This was how they were on the original lazytong booths. Providing there is no inward overlap then they do not impede the folding.

As Chris vdC mentions, velcro is popular and effective. You get the Stick and Stick variety. (There are also Sew 'n Sew & Sew 'n Stick) If you have the choice get the heavy duty variety. It is expensive but the adhesive is better.

It sticks best on planed wood rather than sanded. The advice that it sticks better on painted wood is a fallacy. If you do use it on painted wood then the bond is only as strong as the paint's adhesion to the wood.<br clear="right">
As well as sticking the velcro also use a staple gun to reinforce , especially at the vulnerable ends.<br>
<center><img src="../images/fixers.gif"></center>

Two other methods I have used effectively are both picture mounting techniques. The first uses the fixers illustrated. An alternative is the key slotted plate usually used to hang mirrors.
<center><img src="../images/slottedplate.gif"></center>
John also mentioned pin hinges. These too are very good, and you are not limited to the sizes John mentions. They can easily be made in any size.
<center><img src="../images/pinhinge.gif"></center>
<img src="../images/twinpin.gif" align="right">
Two half hinges either side of the upright would couple with their partners screwed or pop riveted to the back of the proscenium panel.</blockquote>
Last edited by Chris on 14 Oct 2007, 22:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby CvdC » 14 Oct 2007, 21:58

I think hinges make a good solid join at the top.
You can get different types of break apart hinges that don't require pins.
Here is one that is used for cases of technical equipment. I think it's the sort that if you open the lid far enough the hinge comes apart so you can then lift away the lid.
Where you get them I have know idea. But could be worth tracking down.
Given they are not all that heavy or bulky the postage wouldn't be an issue so, like the magnets it may be just as easy to get them on the www.

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Postby Chris » 14 Oct 2007, 22:13

You can get them in this Britain at Maplins. They are splendid for cases with removable lids. I wouldn't recommend them for our purposes though, they won't do the job of a pin hinge in most circumstances.


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Postby CvdC » 15 Oct 2007, 10:38

http://www.djkit.co.uk/acatalog/flightcaseaccs.html
£3.99 each
But what makes them unsuitable pray tell? I'd have thought they were simpler.

Or there is this sort of hinge:

Image

Why fiddle with a pin? But then again why not? It's all much of a muchness when you think about it.

Is this Britain different from that Britain? Does it include Scotland?
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Postby Chris » 15 Oct 2007, 11:54

Picky? I was going to write "this country" and then decided Britain was better - I forgot to erase "this" - a thousand apologies.

The reason I do not recommend the hinges you mention is that they do not do the same thing as a pin hinge. Their main difference being that one component has to be moved through an arc of nearly 180 degrees to either assemble or disassemble. With a pin hinge you just butt the two components together. The pin hinge is a standard piece of theatrical equipment and used in many ways other than on Punch frames. Off the top of my head I can think of at least 30 pin hinges on various rostra and fit ups here in my theatre where it would be impossible to use the removable case lid hinge. Not one could be replaced by such a hinge. It would also be impossible to use for the purpose I illustrated above.

The lift-off hinge you illustrate in the follow up email does have an occasional use - but again, for most of pin hinge use the purpose is to secure something. A pin hinge cannot accidently lift off - a lift off hinge is designed to do just that. For example, with a rostrum on an uneven floor, stepping on an affected part could easily release the hinge.

Actually these lift off hinges are the ones John was referring to, and, as he mentions, another problem with them is that they are not available in a great variety of sizes. The pin hinges I advocate can be made from any size or style of hinge, backflap or whatever.

Another consideration is that pin hinges are usually in pairs. Two sets are easy to marry if you just have to butt two sections together. This is not so easy if you have to lift one component and align two pins. Believe me Chris, it is not all much of a muchness.

The following picture shows pin hinges used to secure the sides on a folding panel Punch booth. I think you will readily see that neither hinge you suggest could be used as an alternative to the pin hinge.
<center><img src="../images/pinhingeonpanelbooth.gif"></center>

But really Chris, when giving my opinion based on years of practical experience I shouldn't have to justify it. It's just advice - you don't have to take it.
Last edited by Chris on 15 Oct 2007, 14:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby johnstoate » 15 Oct 2007, 13:12

At the risk of seeming 'picky' myself Chris, I was NOT referring to 'lift' or 'rising butt' hinges, but the larger size 'pin' hinges. I only specified the size to differentiate between the durable & secure type as opposed to the fiddly & weak variety sold for more 'occasional' use.(Doll's houses and the like). I did toy with the idea of suggesting the grind-off method of producing them as you described, but decided against it in view of the vast differential in skill levels of readers of this board. The ones I use mostly are actually in brass, with a pin size of about 4mm,and the top is 'waisted' which makes an ideal point for fixing them to a light chain with a twisted wire, I would, however, always carry a 'spare' and 3.5mm arc welding rods,(With the flux removed) are ideal for this purpose. :D
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Postby Chris » 15 Oct 2007, 14:14

Fair enough John. What made me think you meant lift-off was when you said
the bigger, (3-4") version for hanging doors

and the only pin hinges I have seen for hanging doors have been of the lift-off variety.

But my point about the simplicity and versatility of making your own still obtains.

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Postby johnstoate » 15 Oct 2007, 14:33

No problems then, - And I totally agree about the simplicity of the 'file' or 'grind-off' method of production :D
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Postby Chris » 15 Oct 2007, 15:51

I actually remove nearly all original pins from hinges I use, not just for pin hinges.
I use small brass hinges for marionette elbow and knee joints. The supplied pin usually works loose after constant use and you can easily find a high kicking puppet propels a lower leg and foot out through the proscenium with considerable force!

In an attempt to avoid this I knock out the original pins and replace them, usually with a panel pin with one end cut proud and riveted over (or bent over a fraction when I am in a hurry).
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Postby CvdC » 15 Oct 2007, 21:40

It's not a matter of asking you to justify yourself Chris. I just wanted further information. This is something that has actually occupied my mind and as I said further up, I was really interested to read the opinion of others. And what's more I do pay attention to what has been said. When next I make a booth I will remember what you have said. And certainly Richard is very much the wiser.
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Postby johnstoate » 16 Oct 2007, 00:13

Just to muddy the waters a little more, Another method that I have used with some success is that of fitting ply strips a little wider than the thickness of the uprights to the back of the wingboards, in such a way as they fit round the uprights, they are then secured by a couple of pins,(Welding rod again) through holes drilled in the strips, and a small door bolt,(1-1/2-2") which locates into the playboard. I do wonder about making a box section fitted to the back which fits over the upright from the top, but (As yet) haven't tried this method! :D
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